#doctor x river meta

[expectiations]

I love that - thanks to one small line - their first kiss gives us a huge look at what kind of partner (and then later husband) the Eleventh Doctor is.

'What, that's it?'

First of all bear in mind from his perspective, yes they've gotten closer, but he's still suspecting that River might kill him sooner rather than later. It's understandable that some trust issues linger and thus he's still a bit quick with the casually dark (and cruel) demeanour.

River knows that. She knows where he is in his timeline. She knows that, despite how much he flirts with her (and he flirts with her A LOT), he is not her husband, not yet the man that loves her and he's not even the man that knows her. So why does his short goodbye confuse her?

Because this small line tells us that not only have they been dating (from his perspective) between DOTM and AGMGTW but they've been dating physically. To River, this short-fuzed ball of trust-issues is essentially not only her husband but also her actual boyfriend.

Meaning that the Doctor, before he became the doting idiot husband we saw in TATM/TNOTD and even before he knew who she was, never dropped her off after a date without at least (!) kissing her goodbye.

And I'm really putting the emphasis on never because River would otherwise not risk asking for a kiss, if there had been any doubt in her mind that this Doctor isn't a Doctor she had been dating. So what does that tell us?

Despite how much this fandom likes to paint the picture of the evil River who forced herself on the Doctor, she is never the one to initiate (physical) intimacy. She expected to be kissed, she expected the Doctor to kiss her because that's what the Doctor does. Husband or not.

And it's so ingrained in their relationship that even when he showed his honest confusion, River assumed he must be acting coy on purpose to get *her* to kiss *him* for once. And well it worked, intentionally or not, River complied because why wouldn't she? It's what they do.

Until of course she is forced to realise that it might not be what they do for much longer. This was his first kiss; so she might not see the boyfriend version of her Doctor very often from now on, if at all.

But ignoring all the insanely depressing angst of how that scene ended, yes we saw an end for River but we also saw where the Doctor's pre-AGMGTW dating spree and thus the affectionate idiot began because he makes it quite clear that he's up for more. (pun intended)

I wish we could've seen more of their time together. Unfortunately 98% of it happens off-screen but the point of this thread is to show that, even if most of it is off-screen, the show has made the nature of their relationship and the nature of the Doctor's feelings very clear. Moffat's writing style is quick-paced and certainly assumes that the audience isn't too stupid to keep up. (wonder how that worked out) And small lines like these contain so much vital information that, for some people, it's easy to overlook. But all we need to know is right there. The Eleventh Doctor dated River prior to AGMGTW, definitely prior to TWORS; they've been intimate for two hundred (!!!!) years from his perspective before he married her and he is the one to initiate that intimacy. That's all. 🥰

original post on X by @/eIevenriver (who writes the bestest Doctor x River threads ever)

[khruschevshoe]

You know what? I'm gonna say it. As someone who is asexual and on the aromantic spectrum myself, I'm a bit tired of the Doctor Who fans who all say that Donna is the best companion of Ten's just because they were best friends and nothing more and that automatically makes her the best companion of RTD and for a lot of you, the best companion overall.

Listen, I LOVE Donna. Adore her. And I also think that her friendship with the Doctor is amazing. But it has always rubbed me the wrong way that the companions who have a romantic interest in the Doctor (and let me tell you, there is textual evidence for every one of them that the feelings were reciprocated in some way) are somehow considered lesser BECAUSE of that interest. That just because they fell for the Doctor means that their relationship with the Doctor is cheapened in some way.

I personally think that just as platonic relationships should not be considered lesser than romantic ones, the same goes in reverse. Amy, Clara, Martha, Rose, River, and Yaz's feelings may have some weak writing decisions attached to them, but so does Donna.

Personally, I love Donna's character arc/the tragedy of her ending, but I've always felt a little disappointed by the fact that her becoming the DoctorDonna in Journey's End was not predicated on her strong characterization/choices (Ala Planet of the Ood/Fires of Pompeii) but by "fate" pushing it to happen. It's honestly more Dalek Caan than Donna making all that happen.

This is NOT to say that I don't love Donna, but just to say that the fact that she had no romantic feelings for the Doctor doesn't automatically catapult her above the rest. Romantic feelings can lead to just as interesting, well-developed character arcs/complicated dynamics as platonic ones can, from the creator/created reciprocated question mark wanting but unable to choose each other over everything dynamic of 11amy to the fascinating destroying each other saving each other one taking all of the emotional toll but honestly craving that prophet-god relationship of 10martha to the shaping each other making each other kinder and braver reminding each other there is hope dooming and saving each other of 9rose to the full dooming each other but running straight at it full tilt because we are purposefully ignoring the turn back now signs of 10rose to the batshit insane codependent reflecting each other refracting each other who is Orpheus and who is Eurydice of 12clara to the there was always someone else in the room keeping us apart but you somehow became my whole world and I knew you from birth to death and we will never be anything more than a shut door of 13yaz to the you doomed me and saved me and you hate me but you might have loved me once and i will spend the rest of my life devoted to you dynamics of 10jack 11river and 12river.

Every relationship is interesting and personal preference might steer you in a certain way due the character arcs/ending preferences/etc., but elevating one over the other because the companion wasn't "foolish" enough to fall in love with the mad genderfluid alien in a box who ran away with you and stole you away to the stars doesn't sit well with me. Romance doesn't cheapen a relationship just as it doesn't automatically make it the ultimate relationship, either.

[jennycalendar]

thinking about it more and i so truly feel like the aversion to eleven/river (in SOME cases, can’t speak for all) comes from a place of feeling deeply uncomfortable with how transparently fucked up this relationship is & feeling as tho canon did not adequately address its pitfalls. and on some level i do get that! but i personally think that canon knows these two absolute imbeciles are completely convinced the other person would not have chosen to love them if given a choice in the matter. and as someone who feels like love itself can really be a moment of violation where choice is stripped from you and you are absolutely clawing and biting to try and get out of the feelings you feel trapped in, there is something so appealing about the doctor and river both being SO STUCK in the love they are fated to feel for this person and both approaching it in such different ways! river is textually enraged that the doctor shaped her life and tries to kill him for it. the doctor is textually enraged that river knows his name and spends all of his time pre-melody obsessively trying to prove to her that he will never tell it to her. they both fight so hard and they lose so hard and they are both so exhausted by it but for whatever weird goddamn reason they are holding hands the whole time. i find that absurdly compelling in its horror. love as a prison you can get out of at any point in time — a prison your lover shows up to whisk you away from, every now and then — a prison you stay in for centuries because you love them you love them you love them

[a-random-whovian7]

*LONG POST WARNING*

What your favourite New Who Companion says about you (absolutely no offence meant towards anyone, this is just for fun):

Rose: Either the most vanilla person alive, or an RTD era purist. Has spent years fighting for the honor of the RTD era. Ships Ten and Rose to the degree that they shudder at the thought of the Doctor having a relationship with someone else. Is constantly at war with Amy stans. Part of the reason for the RTD enjoyer vs Moffat fan civil war. Usually nice in real life, and quite nostalgic for the Tennant era, so usually OK to be friends with. Unless they say Mickey was treated fairly, at which point, you should run.

Mickey: One of the most kind-hearted, empathetic people, who saw how Mickey was mistreated by Rose in S2 and immediately just wanted to check if he was OK. Is able to hold decent relations with Rose stans due to Mickey's character development after the relationship, and has a surprisingly strong alliance with Rory fans. Was gutted when they heard about Noel Clarke's horrible behaviour and actions.

Adam: Let's be real, we all forgot this guy existed and for good reason.

Captain Jack: Every night, they lie in bed, haunted by the ghost of Torchwood. Loved seeing Jack again in S12, but felt disappointed after his lack of presence in Revolution of the Daleks. Has modelled several aspects of their personality on the Captain, and has the dating life (or lack thereof) to prove it. Cried at the deaths of Ianto and John Barrowman's career.

Martha: Basically Rose fans, except with slightly more indie music taste. Either that, or a person who knows how integral Martha is to 10's character arc. Has attempted to defend the "Space Jesus" scene a couple of times, and cried with happiness when Harbo Wholmes said that it worked in his review. Has a bit of a patchy relationship with Rose stans due to the Doctor's rebound arc, gets along better with Donna stans due to the fact that S4 acknowledged that 10 mistreated Martha. Generally has good taste and is nice to be around, just don't mention how undeveloped her relationship with Tom was.

Donna: Either a child of the late 90s/early 2000s who had the joy of watching New Who at it's peak in 2008, a person who really appreciates great character writing and an excellent series, or someone who just wanted a break from the companion having a romantic subplot. Often gets into heated arguments with Amy stans by (correctly) saying that Series 4 was better than Series 5. Uses Donna's funny dialogue and quips to hide the fact they are still recovering from one of the cruellest companion exits in the show. Generally nice, but very defensive of The Doctor's Daughter.

Wilf: I love these guys. Knows that a) Wilf is the single best character in the entirety of New Who and b) he counts as a companion. Has the best possible taste, and is an absolute joy to be around as a result of it. An emotional wreck after every single rewatch of The End of Time, especially now that the legendary Bernard Cribbins has left us. Has excellent relations with Donna stans, and was similarly overjoyed when they heard about the 60th. Refuses to admit that The End of Time would have possibly worked better as a 90 minute special.

Amy: Definitely has followed the eons-old teaching of "gaslight, gatekeep, girlboss" at some point. Refuses to admit A Good Man Goes to War was mid and that Amy really badly mistreated our sweet prince Rory in a large chunk of S5. Is really happy that Karen Gillan made it big in Hollywood. Friendly unless you say you prefer Rose to Amy. Could not be comforted after that cameo in Time of the Doctor.

Rory: Their favourite episode is usually The Girl Who Waited. Loyal, friendly, introverted and lovable, they of course identify with Rory's slightly long-suffering but accepting and funny character. Understandably annoyed at how Amy mistreated Rory in S5, but happy that S6 & 7A fixed that marriage. Thanks to Rory waiting for 2000 years, their bar for any personal relationship has been set insanely high. Celebrated when the BBC actually allowed Arthur Darvill to style his hair in S7A. Had to check Rory was definitely dead at the end of Angels Take Manhattan due to Moffat killing him whenever more tension was needed in a story.

River Song: Divided into two groups. Those who like River Song's more nuanced appearances in Silence in the Library, A Good Man Goes to War and The Husbands of River Song are awesome. Those who prefer the episodes that Moffat wrote with one hand, less so. Was overjpyed to see the Moffat Era reappraisal of 2020, only to be slightly disappointed when people said S6 was his weakest series. Wierdly enough, gets along nicely with all other companion stans. Has definitely said "Hello sweetie" to their partner/partners/friends/pets. If they prefer 12 and River to 11 and River, pass them the aux on a long journey (trust me on this one).

Clara: From my personal experience, there is a 60% chance that they are a closeted bisexual. Doesn't get why Clara was so overhated, especially in S9. Is wierdly OK with admitting that Victorian Clara was slightly more interesting to begin with, but knows that the character worked so well in 12's era. If they ship 11 and Clara, keep an eye on them. They haven't fully earned your trust yet.

Bill: Heterosexuality was never an option. Gets along well with Clara stans, as they both know how much the 12th Doctor's era s l a p p e d. Had their emotions mangled during the S10 finale, but fortunately came out intact thanks to that puddle and a happy-ish ending. Loved that Bill called 12 out on his bullshit and asked all the trivial questions we were all thinking. Singlehandedly drove the Moffat Era reappraisal over quarantine. Has the best fashion sense out of all the stans.

Nardole: A terrifying enigma. Looked at all the companions with complex stories, interesting arcs and major development, but instead went with the comic relief. Yes, Nardole is funny and a great support character, but... er... how? They can be nice. They can also be fans of Little Britain, which is a red flag. It's a roll of the dice.

Graham: Bradley Walsh was the highlight of the slightly undervalued S11, and they know it. Definitely has the vibe of being 10+ years older than they actually are in terms of attitude, but in the best way. Has definitely owned a pair of cords in their life. Goes into Doctor Who just looking for a fun hour of entertainment rather than lore. Great to hang out with. They always bring snacks.

Ryan: Tries to ignore the fact that Ryan has the most fucking insulting depiction of dyspraxia in any form of media (sorry, I have dyspraxia, and the way it was treated in S11 & 12 just really rubbed me the wrong way), but is also helpful and really in favour of spreading awareness. We're cool for now.

Yaz: One of the nicest, most well-intentioned people you will ever meet, always defending the underdog, supporting others and just being sweeter than a tea with six sugars, but also a master of illusion. Has read so many fan fictions, seen so much fan art and shipped Thasmin so much that they have tricked themselves into thinking Yaz is a three-dimensional, well-written character whose story was not completely made up on the go by Chibnall. Little more than a defeated husk after Power of the Doctor, being rewarded for all those years of fanfics, shipping and defending the era with a couple of longing stares and some hastily written "will they/won't they" scenes before 13 unceremoniously booted Yaz out of the TARDIS. Thinks Demons of the Punjab is the best 13 episode when it is really The Haunting of Villa Diodati.

Dan: Is more of a fan of John Bishop and his charisma than they are a fan of Dan, or is a terminally online person who thinks quoting "Evil Dan" videos makes them the funniest human alive (it really doesn't).

Want more of this for some reason? Try your Favourite Doctor or Favourite Master

[midnightrings]

Writing Analysis: River Song (Part One: Silence of the Library/Forest of the Dead)

[Note: Some time ago, when I decided to rewatch Doctor Who to catch up (which has been a while ago, I keep getting distracted lmao) I’ve had the idea to pay some close attention to how River Song’s character arc and storyline evolve throughout the show. Mainly out of personal interest (and also because I’m still working on a River/Doctor multichapter fanfiction), I’ve started taking some notes during her appearances to somewhat analyse her character and writing.

I’ve always found her writing quite interesting because a) she was written out of order, and b) she only appeared in a handful of episodes/stories. Yet, I still completely fell in love with her character (and her relationship with the Doctor), never feeling like she or her arc were not fully developed.

I have not really shared many analyses/interpretations/etc. for a while now (mainly because I’m not that active in most fandom spaces anymore cause … well, they can be rather exhausting), though I always enjoy it and told myself I will start sharing them more often, just in case someone is interested in reading them. This will obviously be in several parts (that I have not finished yet, so I don’t know how long this will take). I will also keep it quite general throughout (so this won't be a deep dive analysis of her) as the focus lays more on how her character and relationship with the Doctor evolve, rather than trying to analyse every single frame. ]

River’s character

This two-parter introduces us to her character and we already learn quite a lot about her. The episodes show that she is clearly smart and intelligent - besides the fact that she is an archeology professor, she also shows technical knowledge and can easily follow the Doctor’s thoughts and instructions. She has a mind of her own and can be quite stubborn as well – not signing Lux’s agreement, not listening to the Doctor when she believes him to be in the wrong, taking charge herself. On top of that, she also displays a lot of compassion: she cares about her team’s wellbeing, obviously about the Doctor too, and later sacrifices herself to save everyone else. Essentially, she clearly shows a lot of character traits you would usually see in the Doctor’s companions, and perhaps even beyond that, as she appears equal to the Doctor in both, intelligence and agency.

“Funny thing is, this means you've always known how I was going to die. All the time we've been together, you knew I was coming here.”

This also introduces us to her theme of time (and time travel, obviously). She coins the term spoilers here, due to not being able to tell the Doctor anything about his future, despite his attempts to find out more. It also shows that she is responsible about time travel, as once she realizes the Doctor has never met her before, she tries to keep any possible spoilers to herself. She also prevents him from killing himself, keeping the timeline in tact (though this was probably majorly due to more selfish reasons, as she obviously did not want to eliminate their time together). This also makes her appear as rather mysterious, though I would not necessarily describe her as a generally secretive person, as she does not hide her emotions or thoughts as showcased by her conversations with and about the Doctor. She does not choose to be secretive, she simply has to be.

Relationship with the Doctor

“He hasn't met me yet. I sent him a message but it went wrong. It arrived too early. This is the Doctor in the days before he knew me. And he looks at me - he looks right through me - and it shouldn't kill me, but it does.”

The nature of their relationship (at least out of River’s perspective at this point) becomes pretty clear throughout the story. Messaging him via his psychic paper, the conversations (or, I’d rather say monologues) she has with her team and Donna in regards to the Doctor as well as her death speech show the close connection she has with him. The slight flirting (specifically in the beginning of the first episode, before she realizes he does not know her yet) also let’s us know exactly what type of connection that is, as well as her heartbreak upon realizing he has not met her before.

In this context, we also get the theme of trust. The Doctor is clearly wary of her, and when she uses a screwdriver (which a future version of the Doctor has given to her) – while it shows us even more how close they would be in the future – it makes him even more suspicious of her. This then prompts River to tell him his name in order for him to trust her. With his name representing such a huge secret and mystery, it is clear now that she is someone extremely special to him, and it becomes clear to the Doctor as well, turning his caution into trust (to some extent, at least). It also creates an interesting relationship between Ten and River for the rest of the episode, as – while he does not know her yet – he is aware that she will be important to him in the future, in the end saving her for his future self’s sake.

“Doctor, one day I'm going to be someone that you trust, completely. But I can't wait for you to find that out. So I'm going to prove it to you. And I'm sorry. I'm really very sorry.“

Of course, the theme of time plays an important role in their relationship here as well. River’s diary, which consists of their future together, becomes a symbol for their relationship, not just in this story, but throughout their episodes. River breaking the spoilers-rule by telling the Doctor that she knows his true name lays the aforementioned basis of trust they would not otherwise have. The screwdriver – though we won’t see it again until River’s last episode – also turns into another symbol, allowing the Doctor through his future self to save her, initially creating a paradox. And then, of course, her death: the Doctor, being forced to watch her die, before even knowing her, represents – despite the otherwise somewhat (twisted) happy ending – the tragedy of their relationship.

Mystery

Now, for a good part of her storyline, the mystery surrounding her character and her relationship with the Doctor is also a prominent theme. I’ve decided to make this a separate category instead of a continuous theme, as it obviously does not occupy her entire storyline but it is an interesting aspect to look at, and see how – in terms of writing – that mystery evolves.

At this point, the mystery consists of only one question: who is she in relation to the Doctor? Of course, River’s interactions with him throughout this two-parter, her final speech and the knowledge of his name strongly hint at the fact that she is in a romantic relationship with him (or will be in the future, out of his perspective). It is never completely revealed, of course but made as apparent as it could be without directly stating it. So the mystery at this point is more whether we will see her again and see her story with the Doctor unfold or not.

Misc. thoughts

I find it quite interesting that the term ‘spoilers’ was first used at the beginning of this story by the Doctor and Donna. While later on, it definitely becomes River’s term (almost like a catchphrase) and is primarily centered around their relationship, at this point it was clearly meant as a theme for the episode that they later reused for River’s entire arc.

General/Final thoughts

What I believe to be very interesting about this two-parter is that, obviously, no one knew whether River would return or not, and as such, she is written like a one-time character. Thankfully, she returned for future episodes, but the story did not need further episodes to back up her character arc. She has been created and written for this story and was as such an already fleshed-out character as we finish the two-parter. And I believe that this really helped her character writing. Had they already known she would return, I have no doubt she would’ve been left rather ambiguous, to allow to shape her character more as the story progresses and to create a bigger mystery (as is done later). Her character arc is already well rounded at this point, and all of the future storylines essentially simply add onto that and use this story as a basis for her character, basically functioning as an outline for her future story arc.

[expectiations]

This is a really bad take on River and here's my attempt at showing why.

I'm never gonna stay and I'm always gonna leave in the end because I have to.

No. Because Rose Tyler didn't get banged up in jail with twelve thousand consecutive life sentences for a murder she was accused of committing. Because Rose Tyler didn't have a promise to keep in helping her husband keep the ruse of his death intact (which is also why she has to leave in the end to go back to Stormcage to keep up appearances).

Because really, if they could, they would rather have the Doctor and River Song, in the TARDIS. Next stop: everywhere.

I will never be the person you think I am each time we meet because our timelines are not synced.

Am confused with this one because "i will never be the person you think I am"? Wording could be better I think. But this is my take from what I understand of it. They never know what events the other has lived through everytime they meet up. That's why they have diaries, to know what should and should not be mentioned. But to River, the Doctor is the Doctor no matter which face she bumps into. So, not really sure what this sentence is saying. Would love a clarification.

Additional input from my dear friend, Ems (@croxxbunx) after we discussed this:

The “I will never be the person you think I am each time we meet because our timelines are not synced” reminds me when I once heard someone say they don’t like River because of how ‘inconsistent’ her character is—One, her and the Doctor are meeting one another out of order, from different points in their timelines. LKH River is different from SiTL River as is TWoRS River from THoRS River. Two, we as viewers (for the first time) are watching from the Doctor’s POV. Like what 15 says, “We’re doing rehab out of order” but instead of rehab, it’s character development/improvement. And three, Moffat uses a lot of subtext. There are gaps and things we don’t get to see, however, they are sometimes implied.

To which I responded:

Ohmygosh. I. LOVE. YOU. EMS. Exactly! They take River as a character and compare her to Rose Tyler who we meet from the Doctor's POV and in a linear manner. And then they force River into that same box? River, who has constantly been introduced as a time traveller and meets her spouse out of order (not in the finite sense) and therefore, cannot, at that basic level, be justifiably compared to Rose? Like flaps hands in consternation

Another additional input from Tree (@seaweedstarshine), another human being I love discussing yowzah with:

Also agree with your friend’s input on the second point (the out-of-order character development is actually genius)! There’s another part of that second point I think OP is overlooking with the very premise of their post—

An important part of the Doctor and River’s relationship is that River loves the Doctor for WHO THEY ARE, seeing past whatever body they happen to be wearing. She doesn’t care that ten has a different face than the ones she’s kissed — she’s just sad that the person she loves doesn’t KNOW her, which is consistent with episodes with early Eleven! As soon as she realizes who twelve is, they instantly fall into the same natural rhythm she enjoyed with eleven. “So what do you think, by the way?” “Of what?” “My new body.” “Oh, I’ll let you know, I’ve only seen the face.” Meanwhile Rose cares a LOT about the Doctor’s body, associating it with who he is. Forget her asking newly regenerated-ten to change back (that can be attributed to her confusion about regeneration) — her reaction in The Stolen Earth speaks volumes when the Doctor starts to regenerate. “But I came all this way! You can’t!” It would seem to indicate that she doesn't see beneath the face he’s wearing at the time, and she sees his regeneration as an abandonment of her rather than a hardship that he's experiencing.

I think that applies to OPs final point too, hard. “Rose Tyler took one look at him, saw right through the mask, and said that’s it.” I think it’s more that she sees him as a good person after the Time War when he can’t quite believe that he is and wants to travel with him forever because he makes her feel special… especially in the Rose novelization

Also when they say “even tho we barely see each other for a long time” a lot of people make the mistake of thinking their only interactions are the ones we see onscreen. A lot of people forget the wonderful world of Jim the Fish huff XD

I will also act like I know everything about you and I'm smarter than you even tho we barely see each other for a long time. btw i'm your wife and the only one who knows your name <3

Even the Doctor admits she's smarter than him on many stuff. But really what they are are equals. With other beings, the Doctor has to explain so they can catch up. With River, it amazes him how she can keep up with him and can even be a step or two ahead. Really shouldn't like that, kinda do. And of course she acts like she knows everything about him, she's his wife for goodness' sake. What do you think they do on all those dates? Barely see each other for a long time? Pfft. Oh please. Have you seen how the Doctor always steps into her personal space? Have you read the Day of the Doctor novelization where he sought her out for his Zygon problem because she's River and she'd definitely know how to handle this but I'm not gonna tell her I think that? And what about that "and Doctor Song? In prison all her days? Her days, yes. Her nights, well... that's between her and me." And what about that "he came when I called just like he always does"? And of course she knows his name River you know my name. You whispered my name in my ear. There's only one reason I could tell anyone my name. There's only one time I could. Hush. Spoilers."

meanwhile rose tyler took one look at him, saw right through the mask and said. thats it. I'm staying with you forever.

I don't want to say anything non positive towards another companion, especially someone who helped the Doctor so much after the Time War. But I'm going to say this - comparing Rose Tyler and River Song to each other and reducing them to this and that will never be a good take.

River was raised and trained from birth to kill the Doctor. The Doctor's failures? All the people, events, places that he had failed to save? River had them for bedtime stories. To be able to break through that conditioning and save the one person she was told is a demon, I'd say that's a pretty big thing.

The thing is Rose is someone who met the Doctor and went on adventures with him, saved the world with him, brought him to back to loving life, and loved him (and that's coming from me who still has to go through her era so I acknowledge that it may not be comprehensive).

River is someone who's known the Doctor since birth but as a villian, the destroyer of worlds, the devil himself. She knows of every single way to kill him. But she overcame all that and started taking back control of her life. She chose who she loved and what she did with that love. She studied archeology to piece together the Doctor apart from what has been told to her by Kovarian and Amy and then ended up excelling in that profession and even went on to become a well-respected professor.

Comparing these two without considering that they're two individuals who are fantastic and brilliant and amazing and wonderful in their own way is really unfair to who they are.

river song is like the antithesis of rose tyler. oh you're lonely? Im never gonna stay and I'm always gonna leave in the end because I have to. I will never be the person you think I am each time we meet because our timelines are not synced. I will also act like I know everything about you and I'm smarter than you even tho we barely see each other for a long time. btw im your wife and the only one who knows your name <3 meanwhile rose tyler took one look at him, saw right through the mask and said. thats it. I'm staying with you forever.

[doctor-who-binge]

Was going to leave comment but I actually uate leaving YT comments— so here we go commentary on this video:

I agree that 10's ending felt like an ending to the show which meant not giving 11 a chance, he was unintentionally set him up to lose viewers. But 10s ending as a character still makes sense, his wallowing over it, his last line, and his complete angry rant about it not being fair after he thought he escaped were all very in character. He was the most human like doctor in the new series— and I mean tbf he turned into a human twice (John Smith & Meta Crisis). I've heard from fans his idea of regeneration being dying is possibly heavily influenced by how John Smith died, and that makes sense to me.

11ths is great. 11 was Amy's imaginary friend, him hallucinating Amy makes complete sense even without Rory; especially because regeneration energy makes all the Doctors high. I also always thought 11 should have been Amy-Rory-River only, no Clara. I don't mind Clara with 11 at the end of the day, but I still think those 4 should have been a neat box with a nice bow all wrapped up (except River who is a nice surprise among 12). The bit about him getting younger again is a bit odd, but I think the speech coming from the actual actor rather than a make-up aged version of the actor was better. It gives a better goodbye to the audience in my opinion sometimes focusing on the audience especially (not the characters) with changes like this, is okay.

River & 12 being together for 24 years is bad??????? I've never heard that take. I love it so much. The Husbands of River Song is one of the best episodes ever for me. "No it doesn't mean forever, it just means time. But I suppose thats not something you could ever understand." - River. Maybe it's because of how big of a River x Doctor fan I am and other people really disliked it. Alex Kingston's reaction to the scene when watching it was really cute

The bit about Donna being a really good end because Davies understands endings and the Clara thing being stupid because Moffat doesn't know how to end things might probably age badly when the 14th doctor specials comes out, we'll just have to wait and see

Maybe everything said in this video is why I prefer Moffat often, Davies episodes often make me way too damn sad when I just want a break from my shitastic life. I don't want my heart broken at the end of every episode.

Obviously 13 isn't in the video. Hers is short and sweet ("less is more with regeneration" according to the video) I know people kinda hated the "tag you're it" line but it seems entirely in character for her. And gives the next doctor a chance for fans to like (if it had been Ncuti) instead of dislike because he represented her dying. Its the polar opposite of 10s regeneration. Which kinda makes it hilarious that she regenerates into Tennant.

I don't have a feeling one way or another on 12, except the line about his name made no sense considering he tells River. There were good nuggets in it but it did feel like it had unnecessary bits. I can say, the destruction of the TARDIS was Chibnall's idea IIRC. He wanted it destroyed. Steven Moffat even expressed a bit of dislike for that choice (its in an interview I can't find).

9s was good but I don't see how it was SCORES better than all the others as the video explaones. I love the emotions and confusion from Rose. And his last line is absolutely amazing.

The 8th was really great because of the Karn aspect imo.

I think thats all my thoughts? I rarely disagree so heavily with a video like this. Reviews of specific episodes absolutely all the time; but when its talking about something overall like comparing regenerations I usually agree with something but other than the 8th doctor, and Moffat needing to learn to just let characters die, I don't think I agreed with much else.

[nostalgia-tblr]

River and Nine

I’m not entirely comfortable with how far Let’s Kill Hitler tied River’s story into the Doctor’s (I prefer her being her own agent doing her own thing, as we only really see in her debut and tHoRS) but I do appreciate that it treats her as RTD treated the Doctor when he was starting out in 2005. Nine (River) needs a symbol of his own goodness, someone whose trust, respect, and love mean that he’s on  some level pure, and Rose (the Doctor) does that nicely.

It’s just flipping the script. Instead of the woman being the essence of purity and wonder, the man is. This time the woman is the one who doubts her own morality, who fears that she is Just Bad. In River’s case it’s her upbringing rather than a war, but Nine and early River are both people who assume the worst about themselves because they’ve done bad things and they don’t know how to come back from that. 

What makes River “turn good” is not so much The Love Of A Good Man but what it means that the good man can love her. In River’s mind the Doctor - being Good - can only love someone who is themselves good, or who at least has the potential for that. (Yes, yes, she’s clearly never met the Master...). The Doctor loves River Song, so River Song must be Good.

It’s why I tend to assume that what he whispered to her in LKH really was just some variation of “I love River Song,” because what the Doctor was reaching for there was the thing that would make River believe in her own redemption and give her the will to go on and be glorious. The Doctor can say “i love you” this time (but we still can’t hear it) because he knows it’s not about him. It’s about her. This is the thing he can say to make her accept her potential.

(He stupidly overlooked the fact that she’d promptly sacrifice herself to save him, but the Doctor is a fucking idiot sometimes and we love that.)

It always reminds me of that bit in ‘Angel’ where Faith is hitting Angel and screaming “I’M EVIL” and begging him to kill her. Less edgy, but River also believes herself beyond hope, and she’s leaned into it (declaring herself a psychopath when she clearly isn’t one) because she doesn’t know what else to do. Nobody ever gave her an alternative.

I love Let’s Kill Hitler because it’s a River episode, in some ways the River episode, and like I may have mentioned in passing at some point, I love River a lot. Also it’s interesting that River starts out being told the Doctor is evil (and it will take her evil to kill him), then sees him as proof of her own goodness, and then comes to know him probably better than anyone in Nu Who bar the Master. She knows he can do terrible things, she knows he has his dark sides. But she doesn’t write him off because of it, she doesn’t get self-righteous about his flaws because they’re so much like her own. 

[melodypond-thewomanwhomarriedme]

sometimes i think about how the doctor gave river just a tiny bit of him to heal her hand when she told him how much it hurt to love him. when she essentially compared that tiny physical damage as opposed to the emotional ones that their timey wimey relationship gives her. and sometimes i think that maybe, maybe, by fixing her hand, he was trying to tell her that no matter how much it hurt, he'd always try to find a way to make it right again for her. that it doesn't matter how much damage there is, because he loves her enough to try and fix it for her if it hurts. and then i lay down on the floor and cry.

[expectiations]

i respectfully disagree. The Doctor has been shown that he gets jealous and possessive over River.

In s5 Time of Angels/Flesh of Stone, 11 gets all jealous when he thought River and Father Octavian were engaged "in a manner of speaking". (There needs to be more GIFs of this scene)

In the Christmas special "The Husbands of River Song", 12 huffs and puffs every other moment at seeing River around King Hydroflax and Ramone.

Later as they're trying to keep the ship from crashing, they have a discussion on his jealousy and River reminds him of his other marriages and he's like "but I never told them my damn name Rivah! I never dressed up and took them on dates! I never offered them to come travel with me several times twice only to be turned down! I never preen every time before I go see them! I don't seek them out! I don't wear a wedding ring to commemorate those marriages! I don't let them assume I'm some random nobody but immediately introduce who I am! And I definitely don't let them drag me around on a 'whatever it was you had going on' spree!" Oh we didn't see that happen but they definitely had that conversation offscreen.

anyways, some people argue that they have an open marriage. it depends on who you're asking really. considering that the Doctor's line of thought is "River + marriage = love" and got all despondent watching River manipulate one guy after the other and thought oh perhaps i'm not really that special but he is the idiot he is. but River, on the other hand, is "not a marriage person" and Moffat once said she married every single species out there. at the end of the day, no matter how many others River may have dated, flirted, banged, even married with, the only person who holds her hearts is the Doctor as she once told Jack when he made her choose between him and the Doctor (i refuse to speak on how he didn't respect her 'no' and chased her all over the universe instead and even tricked 12 into leaving Darillium just so he could have River. like Jack, no. fucksake no. BigFinish whatthefuck? that's the farthest thing from being romantic. but i did say i refuse to speak on that.)

what was my point again? oh yeah, River does have other spouses but the Doctor definitely gets jealous (even gets jealous over their other selves lol) and they haven't cheated, considering that they barely know how to interact with people at times. (notice how 11 ups his flirting game during s6 onwards for and because of River? yeah)

anyway, i'd just like to do away with the notion that the Doctor does not get jealous over River Song's other spouses, including his other selves.

The Doctor x River Song:

And I love ‘em for it <3

[missmarthanightingale]

ok so i know it’s the writers’ faults that all of these openings to explicitly mention river are being passed over & i probably shouldn’t read much into it

but if it were an intentional part of the narrative

i would be thinking a lot about what it says about the doctor’s psyche & mourning process that she can’t bring herself to talk about her wife even when explaining how much she understands graham’s situation might legitimately save his life

[expectiations]

Is it just me or does the phrase "dumb Darillium River" make your ears ring too?

That phrase hurts me like crazy because it takes away how the post-Manhattan events affected her so deeply. And now that we have the added knowledge that she gets to see her parents in New York even after Manhattan, THORS now presents itself in a different light.

River's resounding "the Doctor does not and has never loved me" cements the implication that she and the Doctor had a huge row after Manhattan. What would you feel if the love of your life told you he "does not and has never loved" you? Certainly not happy.

Do you know what grief does to one's mind? No matter how brilliant you are, grief changes you. Grief makes you a different person. I would know, having experienced it myself. And River, in her grief, jumped into a headspace that shut out (or tried hard to) the Doctor.

Yes, she should have recognized it was him she had unknowingly dragged along on her space Robin Hood quest, but for her, it isn't him. It wouldn't be. Because that was the last thing she had heard him say.

Grief and pain clouding her mind, she proudly asserts that no, the Doctor isn't there. He won't show up for her. He has never loved her. But of course, she loves him. She's never denied that. But he proves her wrong soon afterwards. Because she is the Woman The Doctor Loves.

So, yes, on the surface level, "dumb Darillium River" seems to be what THORS had made River to be. But no, it wasn't. It isn't. It was about a grieving River and a chance for the Doctor to right his wrong. (And yes, we were robbed of that kiss. Homie here quite clearly wanted one.)

originally posted over on twitter.

[khruschevshoe]

My Complicated Feelings on Angels Take Manhattan/How Amy's Story Should Have Ended

You know I think the reason why Angels Take Manhattan has always felt off to me (other than the logical gaps/statue of liberty Weeping angel/why couldn't eleven just fly to New Jersey in the 1940s and then just bus in) is that all of Amy's arc up literally beginning in Eleventh Hour/Amy's Choice going through God Complex and Dinosaurs In A Spaceship and the Power of Three feels like it's building up to Amy finally choosing her domestic life/growing up over travelling with the Doctor. Like, it feels like it's building up to a "Martha leaves the Doctor" type ending where Amy decides to choose her normal life and growing up over the Doctor, the kind of situation where he will always be her friend but that she has decided to make her life in the here and now. Something that might feel bittersweet, but ultimately satisfying.

But instead Angels Take Manhattan is about the Doctor and Amy/Rory getting ripped apart ala Ten/Rose or Ten&Donna and it just doesn't quite fit right? Like, Amy gets to choose to stay with Rory but it's framed as more of a tragedy from the Doctor's end? And it's still a repeat of the whole "Rory died so I won't live a life without him" dilemma in Amy's Choice rather than "I choose to grow up on my own terms of my own free will." Like, they were attempting the "choosing to grow up" bit with the final afterword by Amelia Williams part of the story but Rory doesn't get to make a choice over anything. He gets no agency. Hell, Amy doesn't get to choose the life she and Rory were building for themselves so carefully in the Power of Three- that gets ripped away from her, too.

I honestly love the storyline that Amy and Rory and Eleven had, buried between all of the Silence plots and the weird way it ended. I liked the idea of growing up and choosing to settle down while still keeping friends with the stars. And I feel like the need to make their ending tragic kind of undercut some of the impact that Amy getting to make her choice to build something of her own and choose that could have had.

[nostalgicidiot]

— Louise Glück

[regalpotato]

*I’ll suffer, if I have to kill you//More than everything living thing in the universe?//Yes

*Not one living thing is worth you//Or you.

[obsessedwithstarwars]

Short Nocturn in Gotham prompt

I have an idea, and no brain space for it so here ya go. If anyone makes a story off this, please tag me!

This is a dp x dc crossover. And Anger Management because I’m obsessed with Jazz x Jason.

Jazz lives in Gotham, and works as a psychologist for Arkham. Things are going as normal as can be expected for Gotham and an Amity Parker. She’s only dealt with a few muggings and kept her head down because she’s Liminal! and doesn’t want to get the attention of a certain group of vigilantes.

What if Nocturn came to Gotham? (I don’t remember much of the episode so hopefully this tracks)

I would personally start it out trying to trick the reader. (Sorry, It’s fun!) A cute chapter or 2, where Jazz and Jason are together. So normal. Super accepting of each other. With so much fluff it hurts. But slowly, as the story goes on, more and more things seem off. Like déjà vu, like she’s done this before?? (Kind of similar to the vibe of that one Doctor Who episode where Donna Noble gets saved to the Library database. I can’t remember if it’s a 2 part episode? I think it’s called Silence in the Library??? I don’t know, and I’m not looking it up. If you see River Song’s first episode with David Tennant’s Doctor then you’ve got the right one. I think.) Jazz just slowly sees inconsistencies, and brushes them off at first. Hey, she deserves a chance to be happy, okay?! But as time goes on, there are just too many to ignore. She has a nagging feeling something’s not right and briefly wonders if it’s a ghost. But the only one that makes sense is Nocturn and he can’t be in Gotham right? Right??!

When she discovers Jason’s Red Hood, the revelation almost shocks her awake (total mistake on Nocturn’s part. He thought the vigilante thing would keep her asleep or deepen her sleep since it’s kinda normal for her with her brother). She does some quick thinking as she feels herself waking up, and yep, it’s definitely Nocturn, and decides she needs help stopping him. Makes a plan. Not a great one, but hey, it was last second. Literally.

Meanwhile Jason POV shows he’s struggling with believing it too. Thinks she’s too good to be true. (I don’t know anything about the DC universe. I’m going off of the fic Friendly Neighborhood Vigilante by @gilbirda Go check it out, it’s amazing!) And when she discovers he’s Red Hood, she does something ghostly (prolly eyes or strong stuff) and he’s like holy crap she’s a meta, and before he’s had a chance to process anything she says something like “Come find me when you wake up.” (gives me Edge of Tomorrow: Live. Die. Repeat. vibes which just feels fitting here) and shoots him in the chest right before shooting herself (non lethal bullets cause what if you can die in your dream?) and that shocks him awake.

She wakes up at her desk in Arkham to find out that all of Gotham is asleep. Thankfully this includes the villains. (But not for long!)

Does she call Danny or try to deal with it herself?

Is Danny the Ghost King?

Does Jason actually go or does Jazz have to find him?

She’s definitely questioning whether what she had with Jason was real. He does the same with her. Personally, I would keep Batman asleep for a lot of it but that’s because I know nothing about him aside from Wayne Family Adventures (which I’ve been told doesn’t count), the classic old show I watch when I’m sick, and a few episodes from Batman: The Brave and The Bold. Also Young Justice, but that was years ago. Before season 3.

If they have nightmares:

Would Jason’s nightmare be the Joker killing him?

Maybe Jazz’s nightmare is about Dan trying to kill her? Or coming back?

And that’s all I got. Maybe I’ll try to write something eventually, but right now my heart is heavy and my brain is fog. So if you have any ideas, go for it and tag me! I would love to know how you would change/finish it!